Curse

Beat_Go_Stick · May 30, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

ok, this thread has become far from anything anyone can get ideas out of. I made this in an attempt to actually allow those wanting to suggest something to be considered and discussed.

*shrug* who knows....maybe this flamey style argument is more desirable

Trylo · May 30, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I also know that if you try and fight a warrior with an air ele, straight up, you will lose. With an Ether Prodigy guy, you have roughly 2-3 minutes to live.

Yes, you are right.

Air, to me, is useless. Ditto for Fire. This is really not a good sign if 2 entire att. in a class are that pitiful.

Undivine is right, we should really get something to work for an ele, and personally i see way to much abuse in adding pips of regen with higher ES... 55 ele farm? ... Prot Bond comes back! I dont wanna see that again (i got 36k in about half an hour from prot bond farming, which does throw the economy into a tailspin).

Added effects are nice, but maybe a KD in earth magic? like 2% chance every level or earth? and try to make them balanced, poison < burning, at least make it 2 secs of poison to 1 sec of burning.

PERSONALLY, i loved the idea of lowering the amount of energy gained per level in ES, and making it expertise for eles. I dont know if it shoul dbe for all skills, or just ele skills though. IMO, ele only spells would not throw the balance off.

Ensign, Truse?

You're fighting against fire and air, im fighting for earth and water, isnt working to well

Master Fuhon · May 30, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick

ok, this thread has become far from anything anyone can get ideas out of. I made this in an attempt to actually allow those wanting to suggest something to be considered and discussed.

*shrug* who knows....maybe this flamey style argument is more desirable

Your request has a point, since as a thread becomes larger, the likelihood of contributors having read the entire thing decreases. Some of the ideas developing from this thread may not be at a complete enough stage to become suggestions. An open atmosphere for debate is more helpful than a thread that only critiques proposed change. The title of this thread may mislead some into thinking every post will be a solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

Then that makes this a problem with death hurting a caster (energy and health) more than it hurts a warrior (health). Ressurection skills do not favor the caster when he must regen.

I need to clarify my point so that it is not overlooked as being the commonly refered to argument as "energy > life". I was refering to when the warrior drops mid battle, expedient ressurection allows him to resume the current battle. If the caster falls (extreme example being the monk), and if that caster was a vital part of holding position, the caster will once again become subject to the widely recognized law of energy (regen > total).

Over the course of the battle, the overextending character needs the health. I have issues with the balance that "defy pain" is not the overextender's elite of choice, since aggressive play will pay off for more warriors. The warrior skill bar can become the ultimate utility bar encompasing all aspects of the game: spike, snare, interrupt, self heal, mobility, damage (give a W/Mo hex or condition removal). And the process of building adrenaline and a small energy gain capacity allow warriors to get this done, without even considering making better use of elementalist skills in the process. Even if an elementalist had these skills, he must be able to predict the future because using either of these at the wrong time produces a more noticeable effect. Not that every class is meant to be played like a warrior, but can't some of them at least be balanced with one?

Elementalist-only usable skills are missing the good design that gets incorportated into strategy. Like doing deep wound if a lightning surge hits an opponent that it already knocked down. Like blinding flash having its effect on two melee characters is they are massing together. Like the Mind Burn/Shock/Freeze skills instantly recharging if you mistakenly cast them on someone with more energy since you will already be in the hole after the cast. Add cripple to burning skills.

I'm just looking for life in the skill lines that doesn't occur from "more damage, lower recharges, cast times, energy costs, remove exhaustion, etc". They don't flow together like the pvp premade description (use deep freeze to slow and water trident for knockdown). And even some of those ideas involve maintaining the attunements or messing with nature rituals to get the job done. Shouldn't that be the job of the non-elementalists who want to dabble?

Phades · May 30, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You can go through the skill lists, skill by skill, and suggest changes. But what's more important than individual changes is understanding what you're looking at.

You're looking at skills that aren't going to have their effectiveness augmented. There's no buff stacking or metamagic involved. Each one needs to be evaluated in comparison to what other *characters* are realistically going to output, not other skills. Because those other characters *do* get to augment their skills.

I think everyone at one point have suggested skill changes individaully and there have been some minor alterations over time for the elementalist here and there. Nothing like a universal push though has come to pass yet.

One of the ways they could do a universal push, would be to allow buff stacking from within the existing skill lines. The conjure skills already exist, the only thing missing is having them affect the elementalist skills, just like how other buffs affect physical damage dealers and their skills. For some skills, it adds a nudge without worrying about the armor penetration multiplier, for others it would add damage in rather low damage areas in addition to being a rather large potential damage increase for AOE Dot spells making each wave a little bit more threatening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You're looking at a list of skills that the profession has to live and die by. They aren't warriors who can fall back on autoattacking, or rangers who can put up a preparation and cause chaos. An effect that can only be used every minute on a warrior is fine because he can keep busy in the meantime - an elementalist skill that can only be used once a minute needs to be devastating because he's not going to be doing anything in the meantime.

Efficiency shaving can go a long way as well. Alterations like those performed to firebal do not increase the initial spike potential, but make them more playable. Reductions in cast time, cost, and reuse on a per skill basis will always help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There needs to be an understanding that energy storage just lets you frontload the character more, it is not energy management. There is absolutely no reason for an elementalist skill to cost more just because it is an elementalist skill. If you wouldn't make a mesmer or necromancer pay 25 for a spell than an elementalist isn't either. At the same time, elementalists need some non-elite emanagement options badly. Mesmers can run a wide variety of elite spells for different purposes because they are so naturally efficient and have the Inspiration line to take care of their energy needs. Elementalists need a similar, if not greater set of options as the class is so energy hungry. Ether Prodigy should be an option for the most energy hungry of elementalists, not a requirement of running the class.

I agree with this point, but i think some kind of compromise between innate energy efficiency that rangers enjoy and what currently exists for energy storage is the answer. Allow elementalists require less support from energy management skills in general, by being more efficent innately through passive bonuses. This is another kind of small nudge that can happen to improve the class overal. Even though i had the ratio "upside down" in a different thread, the premis is generally sound. Although 10 pips of constant regeneration just seems way too strong.

I dont have a problem with running energy management skills that do something in addition to the energy return, but i do have issues with being forced to run energy management skills that do nothing else in order to be comparable to other profession(s) innate efficentcy. Making the core of the profession more stable without a massive cost reduction in skills across the table could be a valid solution as part of other small changes at first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You're looking at a profession that is naturally hosed by armor more than any other in the game. Any effects that you can give the class to inflict the damage they say they do are treasured like gold. Any effects that are productive without dealing damage similarly get around that problem. Changes to game mechanics that make elementalists less hosed by armor go a long way.

I also agree here, but there are different approaches possible to achieve this. Adding in additional burning makes sense for some skills and a few, like immolate, beg for it. For others it doesn't make as much sense. In going along the lines of self augmented damage, there could be skills akin to judge's insight. Instead of adding a armor penetration percentage, make the skill cap the maximum armor level of the target. It could also be innate, driven by the total attribute level of the elementalist, but that could prove to be too many passive bonuses within the profession. Having the maximum bonus cause the reduction to reside within the 70-80AL range would probably be reasonable, but i think forcing it lower than that would make other skills like obsidian flame obscelete and pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

In other words, the counters are already structurally in place. The game can handle it. The 140 on Lightning Orb shouldn't be a holy grail of balance concerns when Rangers are spiking for 250.

I think this also falls within the skill by skill analysis. Lightning orb specifically could use a small nudge along with several other skills, then observe the results. The problem with straight upping the damage with orb, is the added damage against low AL people pushing it further than the listed damage. Even though things like prot spirit and shelter neuter it entirely. You already know that though.

Undivine · May 31, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

I think perhaps it's time this thread has changed gears. Although some people have started to talk about actual suggestions (thank you by the way), it seems we have another thread that began that a while ago.

So I'm closing this thread and we can continue the discussion here. But let's have no more debating on the effectiveness of eles. If you feel they are not underpowered at all, or if you want to argue that they are, I suggest you start a thread in the Campfire forum (PvE) the Gladiator's Arena forums (PvP) or the Riverside Inn (General Discussion).